I have a dilemma. Last week I have received my manuscript from the proof-reader. There were a lot of changes, especially in punctuation and grammar. She did say that it was more than she would have expected, so you can imagine my concern.
Anyway, I got to work reviewing and accepting changes. Then, at about a half-way mark, I finally had to admit that “something ain’t right”. Specifically, the following two types of changes appeared over and over:
1. Adding a comma before “and” in a simple sentence, such as “Blah, blah,” he said, and offered his hand.
2. Past perfect everywhere, such as “I had never even heard of it before”.
I have googled the bejesus out of these two points and found that:
1. No comma. The only way a comma would be appropriate, if it was an independent clause, such as:”Blah, blah,” he said, and then he offered his hand. Note that there are two subjects, “he” and then “he” again.
2. It should be “have”, because while she’s never heard of it before, she’s heard of it now, as in “I’ve never even heard of it before”.
Still, I was not sure. After all, I’m Russian and the proofreader is educated and may I mention, being paid for this. I have emailed the proofreader. No answer. I finally got her on the phone. After I finished describing the point 1, I asked what rule dictates the comma. The answer? “No rule”.
“Then why is it there?” I asked.
“There’s a pause there, so it felt natural to add a comma,” she said.
I was flabbergasted. I am not paying for an opinion, I’m paying for expertise.
“The manuscript seems overpunctuated,” I said.
“You don’t have to use it,” she said, cool as a cucumber.
I was so shocked that I forgot to bring up point #2 and got off the phone. I feel like a deflated baloon, not even sure if there are other changes she’s suggested based on how it feels, rather than the grammar rules. I’m not sure what I should do. The way I see it, I have two options:
1. Pay her and forget about it, instead starting from the beginning and going through the manuscript and suggested changes myself, researching each questionable point. Pros: one hell of an English lesson I’ll never forget. Cons: hella pissed off about paying someone to confuse me.
2. Send it back to her and tell her to re-do using English rules and not opinions, if she wants me to pay the full price, or negotiate a discounted price to finish it myself.
My sweet and kind partner thinks I should not fight her. My feisty sister’s advice is “it’s on!”. What do you think?
Ana Spoke, author 
I would go with option #2. You’re not paying for punctuation based on her feelings; you’re paying her for punctuation a according to rules … And ant editor would strive to eliminate as much punctuation as possible.
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Option 1 will leave you feeling even more deflated than you are now. While it seems like the adult thing to do, it won’t make anything better. You worked your butt off to produce that manuscript, and now you’re paying someone to review it for you. You wouldn’t pay a babysitter who took horrible care of your child, would you? Don’t let her damage your poor little prized manuscript. Treat it like a precious child. Plus you going through yourself will leave you feeling brain-fried and questioning your self-worth.
If you want this to go far you need to get it done right! She needs to realize that an author needs it done correctly and not based off of what she thinks is “necessary”. Every author has a different style and preference to what rules they want to let slide (and that’s up to them) so she should respect the fact on how you want it done. Get your money’s worth girl! Unleash the claws and stand your ground.
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Thank you Kelsey! Feisty girls unite 🙂
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Yes! What she said. You’re not paying her for her opinion.
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Thank you Tamara 🙂
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Here are my thoughts about the two grammar issues.
Issue #1: “Blah, blah,” he said, and offered his hand.
This one is kind of tricky. You are correct that the addition of the comma is not correct grammar, but she has a point that the addition of the comma makes the sentence sound more natural than simply saying, “’Blah, blah,’ he said and offered his hand.”
What I would suggest instead is saying, “Blah, blah,” he said, offering his hand. This sounds natural in addition to being grammatically correct. In situations like these, I find it works best to change the structure of the sentence slightly in order to avoid the problem.
Issue #2: “I had never even heard of it before”.
The appropriateness of the past perfect depends entirely on the context of the situation. If the scenario is in the present, you are correct that it would be inappropriate. Example: “Have you heard of the band Phish?” “No, I have never heard of them before.” Here, you are correct that it should be “have.”
However, the past perfect can be used appropriately if the situation in question is in the past. Example: “Had you heard of the band Phish before you attended their concert last Thursday?” “No, I had never even heard of them before.”
So, it depends entirely on the context of the situation.
Anyway, end grammar rant.
As for the problem with your editor, I’m not sure exactly what would be best. I guess it would depend on how much you have already paid her. Did you already pay her in advance, or does she get paid at the end? In any case, I would definitely recommend finding a different editor to work with in the future: one whose style you like and agree with.
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Thank you, I loved the rant 🙂 I do love the solution to #1, it seems to flow better, anyway. In the number 2, the context is suggesting “have”, as someone just described the thing in question to her, and she is thinking that she’s never heard of it.
I will try to work it out, but yes, will start from scratch for book #2. I have not paid the proofreader yet.
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I agree with celestishesperus, but will add one more thing.
In #2, keep in mind you have more flexibility in dialogue than exposition. I’d worry less about what’s grammatically correct and more about how the speaking character speaks/thinks. People mess-up have and had (including omitting) all the time. Say it in the character’s voice and you’re fine. If someone gives you crap about it, you answer, “That’s how that character talks,” 🙂
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Thank you Ron! Can I get away with it then if the whole novel is in first person? Technically, her descriptions of settings and actions or thoughts are in her “voice” as well…
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I would go with option 2 as you are paying her anyways.
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Thank you Lata!
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First, periods and commas always are placed inside the closed quote.
Better to phrase the second sentence: “I had not heard of it.”
(My feisty sister’s advice is: It’s on!” The exclamation mark ends the sentence. No period required. In this case, the exclamation mark should appear inside the closed quote.)
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Thank you 🙂 The post has not been properly edited, I apologise – written from memory and by a very emotional woman 🙂
It’s on. I will try to phrase my request in a collaborative way…
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As a editor…and an author, I’ve been in both of your shoes! I was publicly bashed (which I don’t recommend) by an author because I didn’t…are you read for this…use contractions and combine sentences in another authors novel. Old school rules were you contracted and combine everything. But that’s not how people talk or think and that philosophy is going out the window. As an author, I would do #2. As an editor, I would want you do #2. It seems, to me, she edited for academia instead of manuscript. I know I am a comma happy editor, sorry I love my Oxford comma, but you are correct. Those examples are not correct, even for Chicago Style. -A.
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Thank you so much for your suggestion. I agree, I don’t want to publicly bash her, she is young and needs to learn, probably. I think #2 done in a cordial way would be my way to go.
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I’d say, “It’s on!”
The worst feedback in the world is when it’s only grammatical/ stylistic suggestions. If you didn’t get any other feedback, maybe find a new editor…
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Haha! My sister is not the only feisty girl around…thank you! The proofreader did pick up some surprising misspellings, etc. The manuscript has been through a copy edit, so my expectations were only for a “final polish”.
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I agree or find a new proof reader who knows the rules.
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Thank you! I will contact her, she needs to learn, too.
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Your concern is valid. Option #2 sounds like the better of the two, however …
This is reminiscent of unexpectedly being told by a doctor you just met that you need complex and expensive surgery. I would get a second opinion. Unfortunately you will have to pay for it. Consider getting a second proof reader to review either the original, the “proofed” version, or both.
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Thank you CB. When will the bleeding stop…:-) I am thinking I will ask her to rework it, go through it myself, and then perhaps get another set of eyes on the manuscript. Just so frustrated that the publication date keeps getting pushed and pushed, but better than putting something out and people laughing at it for all the wrong reasons.
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It, just, occurred, to, me. Too, many, commas, and, it, will, sound, like, it, was, written, by, William, Shatner
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Hahaha! Point. Well. Made.
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Is that a bad thing?
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Hahaha! Yes, if the protagonist is supposed to be a 20-year old girl…
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Hi Ana,
I feel bad that this happened to you. This is awful. You trusted this person to oversee your MS and they did a poor job.
I’d go through the rest of the MS and flag other concerns about the changes she made. Then ask her to review them and address those concerns, i.e. explain them or fix them. If she can’t explain them or she won’t fix them, terminate services and come to an agreement of what to pay and move on. It actually might be prudent to move on. Based on just the snippet of conversation with her that you shared, I see red flags.
If I may share some insight, based on the kind of service you said you were expecting to receive for your MS, it sounded like you wanted a copyeditor. Unfortunately, copyeditor and proofreader are used synomously, but a copyeditor and proofreader are not the same thing. A proofreader is someone who checks a MS in its final stage right before it’s published; the manuscript is checked for format, alignment, and continuity with punctuation. A proofreader will not check for grammar, spelling, or punctuation. (The copyeditor is the one who catches and corrects errors before it goes to the proofreader; this is why a proofreader doesn’t check for those things.)
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I recently had a similar experience with a magazine sub-editor who filled a piece I wrote with commas.
Enthusiasm for inserting a comma where there seems to be a natural pause is not new. I read somewhere that the author James Thurber almost came to blows with Harold Ross, the first editor of The New Yorker magazine, about the commas many commas he added to one of Thurber’s stories. It does come down opinion at times.
My opinion is that too many commas spoil the flow. I cut out as many as I can when editing my own work. However, I must admit to being a devotee of the “Oxford comma.”
As for the past perfect thing, I think the proof reader is correct. Although it’s common in spoken language to say, “I’ve never even heard of it before,” you have heard if it now so “had” is correct.
I’d ditch the “even” as well. It’s a weak modifier you don’t need.
Lynne Truss in her 2003 book “Eats Shoots and Leaves” does a good job explaining the vagaries of commas in a simple and amusing way. Mary Norris of the New Yorker also discusses them in her recent effort: “Between You and Me.”
Best of luck
Robert Hitchins (Dr Bob)
>
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Thank you Bob! When it’s thoughts of my protagonist (a rather poorly educated 20-year old), I think a mistake would actually add to authenticity…I could also be overthinking it, but that’s just how I roll 🙂
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I totally agree that speech patterns and grammar should match the social position of the character. I love that weird thing they used to do in old gangster movies, where the gangsters would speak in a very stilted and artificially correct way because they were trying to prove that they were gentlemen. Having all the grammatical flaws edited out of dialogue is hardly ever a good idea in my opinion.
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Thank you TL. My problem, of course, is not sure what is a flaw 🙂 My protagonist loves rap and talks in half-finished sentences, I wouldn’t change that 🙂
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Is russian your first language? And your writing a book in one of the hardest languages with the most inconsistent spelling? I understand why its so confusing it confuses everyone!haha
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Yep and yep 🙂
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Impressive.. Good luck!
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молодец!
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Спасибо! Я очень старалась 😀
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I have met some “critics” who sounded like rewriting my stories in their words, as per their views, that is why I stopped banking on them, you can buy a proofreading software, they are available on net, do burn the pocket but if you can hire a proofreader you may try buying one instead!
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Proofreading software? Do you have a suggestion? Thank you Sharmishtha!
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“Blah, blah,” he said, and offered his hand.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. There is no point in fighting this woman. You’re both right. It’s hard to accept critical feedback, but it will improve your work. She did her job–you just don’t agree with it. And guess what? You don’t have to. You can leave parts of it “as is,” you can follow her advice elsewhere in your manuscript. It’s up to you. You can quibble over commas, and I have quibbled over commas with editors and with fellow writers, in my weekly workshop, and believe me–ultimately–the feedback is priceless, and the call is yours, so don’t stress.
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Thank you heather 🙂 I think the main reason I’m stressing is that this is my first novel and English is not my first language. Ultimately I fear the feedback from readers in that I will get low ratings because of grammar or something, the story will get lost (Amazon is all about reviews and ratings), I will get discouraged and never write again. Yes, perhaps overdramatic 🙂
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Get another proofreader. If you can’t trust or feel comfortable with the person then you never will.
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Thank you Richard, I probably will. It’s “to pay or not to pay”, that is currently the question 🙂
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Hmm! Tricky.
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Ana, I feel your pain. I was educated by an author of good standing in the art of proofreading and it took 12 months to do that part alone.
I would exercise caution in all of this, though. I know from past experience that putting rules on art is a fool’s game. That’s the first issue here.
The second is this; while the English claim ownership and grammatical rights to the terrible mess of a language they foisted upon the world, so do the Americans. American culture ate the rulebook a long time ago, creating even more confusion.
In many cases, they straightened and simplified a contradictory and over-complicated language and streamlined it somewhat.
The point is, for every rule you find, you will find a contradiction somewhere.
I was taught this: Do your characters have a masters degree in English? Chances are, no.
Thus, when creating dialogue, listen to the character speak in your imagination. If it doesn’t sound like them, something’s wrong.Look at the sample you gave; “I had never even heard of it before”.
Naturally, there should be a full stop inside the quotes, but that’s not what you were pointing out. True, this is not properly written. But, to be honest, I hear people say things like that every day.
Perhaps your proofreader is simply stressing the natural flow of speech as opposed to “Correct” English.
If you do not prioritize natural speech over correct English, in many cases your characters will come across as false.
I also prefer to place a comma before and where there is a pause.
The most common compliment I get on The Road Out is how easy it is to read, and how the reader didn’t want to stop.
Art first, rules second, in my humble opinion.
P.S. underlining thought is definitely a no-no, but it hasn’t stopped the gentleman making the GDP of a small country from Game of Thrones…
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Thank you, William! The point inside quotation marks is my mistake, I did not copy and paste from manuscript (as I should have done). You raise a very good point about American English, and my novel is set in the US, which makes it doubly difficult, writing it after 8 years in Australia, being Russian-born, and having Australian editors…
I will try to do the very best job with my abilities and resources, and yes – hope that the story will carry the reader through 🙂 It’s a comedy, after all, as long as they’re laughing, I don’t care why…
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What a mess. I’m sorry you had to go through that. When I edit, I always include an editorial report explaining the repeated errors that I am correcting and the rules and logic behind them to the author, so they know I’m not just going with my gut, but also, because I think it’s beneficial to always be learning and only if they know the rule can they make an educated decision about whether or not they want to break it for the sake of stylistic art.
I’d try to make this clear to her, that you’d like it to be edited in line with the rules of standardized style guides (Chicago most likely for the US) and that you want to understand the choices she’s making. Yes, this is more work for her, but at this point she’s lost your trust in her expertise.
You don’t have to go on the attack with her, but you don’t have to hide in a corner and just let the matter go either. There are other options and hopefully you can find a middle ground that will leave you happy with what you paid for. You deserve that!
But also sometimes finding a good editor is a little like dating; your attitudes, styles, ways of approaching things don’t always mesh. When you are looking in the future, try and get some sample pages done from a few different editors you are interested in and see which one is going to be the best fit for you before committing to an entire book.
Hang in there. 🙂
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Thank you Bex! If it’s anything like dating…omg, I don’t want to do it anymore! Seriously, though, you’re right. If I find The Right One in the future, I will stick with them until we grow old together 🙂
I will do more looking through the MS and write to her with all my questions at once, hopefully we can work out a solution…thanks again!
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I agree. At the end of the day, an editor can only supply an opinion based on their own knowledge base. I suspect that no two editors would ever supply the same assessment of a work.
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Thank you William. I could be overreacting, being new at this and having too high of expectations, but I will try to work with her until I’m comfortable enough to send the novel out to the world. Omg, just got goosebumps thinking it will be on Amazon 🙂
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It’s worth all the work and all wait. Please keep in mind that once you publish, the work of selling it begins. Be patient and it will happen. Whatever you do, don’t give up!
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Thank you William. Can’t wait 🙂 No giving up here, the whole process is addictive…
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To be honest, given that English isn’t your first language, I think you have done brilliantly well to spot these two points…
I personally would probably go with option 2, but maybe ask her if she could go through it with you and explain her thought processes for some of it? It might help you understand it better and help you to feel better.
The other thing I would say, is that although there are definite rules for grammar etc. in the English language, people rarely follow them exactly, and because of this, we do tend to go with what feels right, what flows best. For example, I’m pretty sure that only two of the commas in the above sentence are grammatically correct.
Seriously though, hats off for writing a novel in a second language! I can barely write in my own language, let alone someone else’s!
Good luck with it all though, I hope it gets sorted out xxx
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Thank you Georgie! I’ve been speaking English for over half of my life, so actually my Russian is now getting rusty 🙂 I think I will do a bit more work and see if I can spot any other issues similar to these, since I have already formed an opinion on them (less commas, I think). If there’s more, I will raise it with her. Thank you very much for your support, the last finishing bits of self-publishing are so hard, and seem never-ending…
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Honestly, now that you know how this editor works, my suggestion would be move on to another editor. Give them a sample of your work as a test and see if their thoughts and yours line up.
That said, if you need recommendations, I have a great editor I use regularly.
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Thank you so much, CJ! Is this editor in US/American?
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She is, out of Seattle.
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New to your site but I do beta/proofread for fanfiction.
I don’t know all the grammar rules but I do know there are two types of thinking on commas. I’ve had this issue with one of the ladies I work with; she’s of the opinion that more is just right *sigh*.
My line of thinking is ‘less is more’. Certainly there are places a comma belongs in a sentence and we make sure they are there.
As someone suggested above sometimes rewording the questionable phrase often sounds and looks better than what you had there in the first place.
As for your proofreader dilemma: You are paying for a service, that service should be as spot on as possible. You are paying for her expertise in something you are not a master at. If you were at a restaurant and found a hair in your soup you would send it back with instructions to either fix the issue by bringing another bowl or take it off the bill. If it kept happening you would find somewhere else to eat next time.
The same can be said for proofreading. You could send it back and tell her to fix it or you can reject those particular changes and tell her next time that that isn’t the way you roll. If she keeps doing it you could find somebody else (I don’t know how easy that is but it is still an option.)
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Thank you so much for your support, TJ! I’m definitely getting back to her with a request to either fix it or waive part of the fee, so I can pay someone else to finish. I will definitely get fresh quotes next time and one day will find the right person to collaborate with indefinitely.
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When you find that right person it truly is awesome
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Ana, I don’t believe there is anything more to add. I think you know what you must do. Good luck. Donna
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Thank you Donna 🙂 It does help to hear from many people, though – a bit of a sanity check, otherwise I doubt sometimes what’s fair, since I’ve been told I can be harsh… I’m not, I’m just so used to American customer service! I miss it!
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Hi Anna! That sounds like the most annoying thing ever. If she isn’t following basic grammar rules then why is she passing herself off as a proofreader? If you do need any help get in touch! I am a proofreader and copyeditor. I hope that you resolve the situation quickly and without too much fuss. And I look forward to reading your novel when it’s published!
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Thank you so much, Abigail! I’m working through the doc from the beginning and will see if I can work it out with her… maybe I can ask for a quote from you for a second one? Methinks I should get an American editor next time, weak Australian dollar be damned…
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Hahah! If you visit my page or drop me an email on info@abbeyrosesuccess.com I can give you a quote. I wouldn’t worry though; things will work themselves out for good, because you’re clearly super pro-active and will certainly be able to fully and amicably resolve the situation in time.
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I tend to use more commas than I should, putting them where I understood them to be correct, and being told that I should use as few as possible as long as the intended meaning is not lost, because, especially in a thriller, momentum can be slowed unnecessarily. You are forced to trust your proofreader more because English is not your first language, so do find one with whom you are happier. Reading it aloud usually give you a better feel for where the pauses should be. Good luck.
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Thank you Peter! Being the project manager I am, I’m compiling a table of the bits I’m questioning… slow, painful work! I am however, feeling a bit better, because I’m once again reminded of how much she did catch. I’m a first timer, maybe this is a normal process?
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She’s right – they are suggestions, so you’re not obligated to go with them. If I was in her shoes (and as an editor myself) I wouldn’t be offended if they were rejected. After all, you’re the boss.
Secondly, I agree the comma feels more natural. But neither is right nor wrong.
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I have nothing to add to what’s already been said. Good luck, Ana! 🙂
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Thank you!
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So I’m pretty sure any punctuation always goes inside of the quotations…
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Hi Scarlett, she was good on that account – this post has not been properly edited…I better do it now!
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Give her another try and if your gut still tells you that something is off, then find someone else.
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Thank you Charlie, I will. Venting like this has helped me get a reality check in some ways and confidence to push on. I think I can do it in collaborative, but firm, way.
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Hello Ana.
I think I’m going to have to agree – in part – with Hugh. Editing/copy editing/proofreading is more of a partnership. Everything your proofreader tells you is a suggestion based on her experience and background, which may be the problem here. If I’m writing a literary piece then I’ll want to work with someone who has written and/or edited literary fiction.
The additional comma in your first example doesn’t break any rule, but I agree with you: I don’t think it adds any clarity to the sentence and (in my opinion) it interferes with the flow. If your proofreader is used to working with scientific documents or technical manuals then she may disagree.
What I’m saying is that you’re paying for an experienced opinion, not a right or wrong answer. If you stick rigidly to all the ‘right’ answers concerning comma usage then I’m pretty sure you’ll end up using too many.
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Thank you Dom. I’ll try my best sorting it out, the added difficulty here is me being Russian-born and sometimes no speaka English good…I doubt myself when it comes to the final polish (I’m pretty good with writing by feel).
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If you hadn’t mentioned it then I wouldn’t have known English isn’t your first language. You write it well enough to decide whether or not to accept editorial advice.
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Awww…sanks 🙂
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Read your contract, with her and see what options are. No contract? No problem. Don’t pay her and don’t return your work to her. Find somebody qualified.
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Thank you Sheetz. I will definitely pay her, she did a very thorough job, I just want to know why she’s made certain choices, and if they are personal preferences, go back to the original draft.
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The problem is that so many of these “rules” are rea
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Hi John, did you get cut off?
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As a writer, I have found that editors are my best friends. As writers, we are generally about sharing ideas, not as much about punctuation and grammar. Editors are more about the latter, so it’s a great complementary relationship. Having said that, it is also important to find the right editor for your work, one who appreciates your writing and will support you in making it even better when it’s published.
All the best. Keep on writing, because it’s all about expressing our authentic ideas.
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Thank you Gregory 🙂 Can’t wait to finish this publishing exercise, it keeps me away from writing the second one…
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I would ask her to redo the proofread, while sticking to the English rule, because this is your work, not hers and you do not want her opinions ruining the work you have put into your writing.
She is also being paid to proofread the work correctly, not put her opinions onto your work.
Maria x
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As an editor-in-chief and senior editor for creative writing publications as well as a proof-reader for a literary agent, you DO have to have a comma in front of “and” in APPROPRIATE instances (not always, but most of the time, depending on the context of the sentence). I also agree with your proof-reader’s second point, simply because it is grammatically correct.
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Thank you Victoria. Is there a reason for that comma?
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Yes. Very generally speaking, commas should be inserted where there would be a natural pause in the sentence. So, if you were reading the sentence aloud, a comma should (very generally speaking) be inserted wherever you would pause. As someone who is not a native speaker of English, this may be tricky, and like I said, it’s a very general rule, as different people pause in different places.
The comma also helps to prevent the sentence from feeling too long or run-on. While the sentence itself may not be a run-on sentence or have a list-like quality about it, longer sentences often benefit from commas before “and” to assist in the reading of the sentence; “and” is a word that helps to join ideas together (unlike a semi-colon, “and” often assists in building your idea up) OR create a list, and so it can sometimes be difficult or confusing for a reader to understand a longer sentence without the placement of a comma to help them understand where the original thought is being built upon.
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I do not agree with any punctuation rules – or spelling. If it makes sense, it’s correct. If it’s prose, it should be as clear as a bell. If it’s poetry its clarity lies in its nuance…
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Thank you Bruce. I view punctualtion in the same light as I do government – I may not agree with it, but the fact is, it’s there. I just want people not to be destructed by “ugh, weird grammar” and enjoy the story instead.
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I didn’t read all the comments because I’m at work, but fight her. That many changes isn’t simple proofreading, it’s altering your writing style. YOU wrote this story, not her, and it sounds like she’s trying to do more than her fair share here. Good luck!
As far as second opinions on your proof, it never hurts to just ask around. I’m currently ghostwriting a series of novels for a friend of a friend because he asked if anyone knew somebody. His initial request was for proofreading/copy editing, which I agreed to for credit and a link to my novel, but when it turned out that he didn’t even have a cohesive story, just an outline and thousands and thousands of words of dialogue, we renegotiated for a percentage of profits. So you could luck out.
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Thank you April! She has not really altered the style, per se, but she has suggested punctuation changes based on feel, rather than rules. I will try to get it as good as I possibly can, but lots of people have suggested that it would not be a deciding factor for them in how much they’d like a book, so that’s encouraging 🙂
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I would make any correction you feel comfortable making (#1), but I would also inform her that you don’t want her opinions, but rule-based corrections (2). Before you send the next book off, I would research other proofreaders, and find one that meets your expectations.
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Thank you MJ! I will definitely go back to the market next time…as for this one, I’m preparing a summary of all questionable points, will send it to her and see how she responds.
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Sounds like a great way to go. Best wishes.
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You have received some great advice. The only advice I would offer is go with what will help your book stay true to the feel of your characters storyline. Majority of the readers will want a natural flow to the story and not give a second thought to commas,etc. When I’m reading a book I don’t look at the punctuation. I know I want the story to take me into another place and time without any thought to punctuation. Go with what YOU think is right for your book. You are the one who’s blood sweat and time went into it and only you know the characters personalities. Tell her what you require for your book to be exactly what you envisioned if she balks then agree on a discounted payment for what she did and find someone else. Word of mouth is best when searching for a proofreader. Someone that has worked with that person can tell you about their experience. That way you aren’t out of time and money if they don’t sound like the proofreader for you. Ask for samples of their work if your interested. Thought I’d ask ( don’t get mad) have you had time to work on your final cover? Can’t wait to see it! Good luck with everything.
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You’re so right, and I’m so thankful every day that I’ve decided to self publish. I can’t imagine having my first baby in hands of other people, who would confidently make all decisions for me. I’ve heard of people practically getting their novels rewritten…now I think that if and when I go with a publisher, it will be from a completely different level of understanding and self confidence.
How can I ever be mad at you, Olivia?? Thank you for being interested…the answer is yes, I have, but I’m not ready to post it yet, because I have been in this negative/stressed frame of mind, and not sure if what I’ve come up is worthy of “final” status. I will sort out this latest drama and have a look at the design with fresh eyes. I did go back to the double rip, so there’s a spoiler 🙂
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Punctuation can vary from country to country. If you are in the US, then you would be correct in that those commas are unnecessary in that case. However, I tend to be more strict with my rules and have focused on commas in particular because they are either overused or underused.
It sounds to me like she doesn’t know the rules, which makes me wonder why she’s passing herself off as a proofreader. Yes, rules can be broken; however, there must be a reason, and they are known as exceptions for a reason. If you use those exceptions all the time, it is supposed to be the rule. The only other thing I can think of is that she’s from an area that uses different rules.
I would definitely be polite in the conversation though and try to agree on a fair refund or other compromise. If you do get stuck with number one, I’m afraid I don’t really know of any editors. Unless you trust me, haha.
I would go for option number two and explain to her that you are looking for standard grammar and punctuation.
Secondly, past present tense is very clunky in nature and unnecessary. It will only make the sentences
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Thank you Kristina! Did your post get cut off? I think you were trying to make a point about sentences becoming (I assume) awkward with overuse of past present (or past perfect…I never got those right…). I felt they were “ugly”, with too many “qualifiers” or something…
Thank you for your advice, I am compiling all of my ‘oain points” to her in a table and will try to work it out. An issue is definitely that she is Australian trying to apply American grammar. next time I will try to find an American, and looking at the online response, I could find one with the help of the virtual writing community 🙂
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It did. My tablet makes it not so fun to reply. But yes, it makes it harder to read and because it is not used as often, I find it more difficult to understand at times.
Best of luck with it. Do let us know how it goes. Do you worry she will stumble upon this post?
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I have not used her name (and plan not to), so I assume it’s not an issue. if she does, it should be an educational experience. It certainly has been for me – the understanding and opinions on grammar vary so widely…I have not expected this post to spark such a heated discussion!
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Hi Ana, First off, thanks for following my blog!
Regarding your copy editor, it seems there are a few issues here.
The first is that you contracted with this person, and she’s done the work you said you’d pay her to – just not in the way you expected. That’s a failure of communication, but she hasn’t behaved immorally or illegally, and if it were me, I’d feel that the right thing to do would be to pay her. Sadly Caveat Emptor applies here – that’s why you should always get recommendations from other writers you trust before contracting any kind of paid editorial work.
Re. the issues you raise about your copy editor’s suggestions. These examples actually look right to me!
1. Adding a comma before “and” in a simple sentence, such as “Blah, blah,” he said, and offered his hand.
I’m British English, and I’m good at punctuation. I often put a comma before ‘and’ to indicate that there’s a second clause in the sentence and avoid running on. I just did that in the first sentence of this paragraph. “and offered his hand” here does feel to me like it works better as a separate clause. However, in this instance you could go either way.
I notice another commentator has suggested a progressive verb (present participle) – he said, offering his his hand. That is correct form too, but you’ll find plenty of style guides that tell you overuse of progressives is a major sin! You pays your money, you takes your choice.
2. “I had never even heard of it before”.
In that case, the tense seems absolutely the right choice. My usual advice to writing students is to get out of pluperfect asap, since it will be awkward, require far too many auxilliary verbs and tie you up in knots. You should never write a whole paragraph in this mode. However, it is essential on occasion – i.e. when you’re already in past tense and you want to indicate that something you’re mentioning predates the current story moment.
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Thank you Robert. I’m going down the path of compiling a list of suggestions that I either don’t understand or disagree with, and sending it to her for another look. I hope she agrees to further review, otherwise I will raise the issue of “paying for expertise, not opinion”. You say British English, what would be correct in US? I understand from the last two exercises of asking people for opinions (also on cover design), that you can’t get everyone to agree. I’m aiming for a majority or accepted standard.
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I agree with you, Ana. You are not paying for her opinion, you’re looking for professional editing so that you can market your writing. I’m not sure that I would trust her work completely. I’m sure she believes that her work is done since she sent you back the edited manuscript, but for her to admit that she’s going on opinion put you in a compromising position because you, ultimately , are the one who is trying to publish that book.
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Thank you! I am, however, more appreciative of what she’s done now that I’m going through it again and noting all the right suggestions. If she reacts well to my request to further review what troubles me, I would consider her editing to be a positive experience. Hopefully she learns from this as much as I’m currently learning…
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Hey! I would definitely fight her on it. If you need help, I proofread for a couple of authors. My turnaround time is pretty quick, and I can make it quicker if you’re on a deadline. I always warn that I do use the Oxford comma. Just let me know if you need help. Good luck!!
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Hi Ana. The problem is ‘Correct’ is to some extent a matter of opinion, in both British and US English. Conventions also change with time – unless you’re a prescriptive grammarian, which I’m not. There are a variety of style books you might consult – Strunk and White is the classic, as I’m sure you know, and focuses on US English. It’s a bit out of date in some respects, but still a lot of writers’ go-to for fundamental style advice. Online, Grammar Girl is fantastic.
Something else to consider is that you’re writing fiction, and that’s a much less regulated form than journalism or academic writing, for the very good reason that part of what you’re doing is developing your own voice and style, which sometimes involves ‘breaking rules’. Think of it like music – a disharmony in one piece can work as a harmony in another. It’s all about context.
You’ve written a contemporary comedy, so the important things are (in this order):
1. That your narrative makes sense to the reader
2. That it’s funny and engaging
3. That it has a lively authorial voice
You’ll notice that ‘slavishly following the rules of grammar and punctuation’ aren’t on that list. That’s because nobody ever said ‘I particularly enjoyed that story because of the author’s adherence to the principle of never ending a sentence with a preposition.’
It’s way too easy to get hung up on this comma or that semicolon, or start dissecting each individual sentence. Readers mainly don’t notice this stuff. In fact, as EL James has proved, they will happily plough through the most awful prose imaginable if they like the content.
Your proofreader seems to have been copy-editing. As I understand your post, that wasn’t what you wanted from the service – since you’d already used a copy editor. As I said before, that’s a communication problem – either you didn’t set your parameters clearly enough, or she didn’t hear what you actually asked her to do.
As a cheaper solution you might try running your prose through pro writing aid – which is free to use online and works pretty well at picking up stylistic gaffes, bad habits and so forth. As with any proofreader, though, the final decision is the author’s, and you need to confident about your own writing. If you try putting a page of Nabokov through it, it will find ‘errors’. That’s because its job is to find errors, not to enjoy the read. The same is true of many proofreaders, who operate according to the principle that writers won’t be satisfied with the work unless there are a lot of corrections.
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Thank you Robert! No, I have not heard of Grammar Girl, I will check her out! It’s true, the proofreader has done copy editing as well, but I can’t fault her for that, since she has picked up errors that Copyeditor should have (like “baited breath” and “I felt hangover”). I will be asking her to revisit, keeping in mind that my protagonist is a street-smart and rap-loving girl barely out of her teens.
You are very much on point with the whole enjoyment thing over correctness! I must say, this has been a therapeutic experience, I was so disappointed before, and now have a completely different perspective 🙂 Can’t quite express how much I appreciate everyone taking interest in my predicament!
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Oh my goodness! I would have been at a loss for words! Clearly you were as well.
I personally am finishing up my degree in English literature and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that there are rules for commas and punctuation. For your proof reader to say that there is no rule means there is definitely something wrong. There is a website called “Grammarly” (if you google it it’s the first thing that comes up) and I have used this site many times. You could try things on your own and use websites like these to edit your work. I wouldn’t waste your money on someone who thinks so little of the English language as to say that there aren’t any rules for commas… I mean honestly.
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Thank you Sammy! I tend to agree – language is a “code” by which we communicate, so when people start taking liberties with the code, it will be miscommunication and frustration.
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As a student studying English literature and linguistics at university level, I would recommend getting a different editor. English as a language is beautifully complex and syntax in particular is based on rules, not on what someone feels is correct. While languages are constantly evolving, it is still prudent to have an editor base their corrections on the current accepted rules of any given language.
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Thank you Veronique, I couldn’t agree more 🙂
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Just reading about this makes me frustrated, almost angry. There are so many people out there claiming to be professionals and then charge you a massive amount of money to “help” you, but don’t even go close to doing that. Option #2 is clearly the way to go, if you ask me. Don’t pay for a service that hasn’t done anything for you. You need to set things straight, and so does she!
Good luck! 🙂
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Thank you Johanna! Yes, it is a jungle out there, and I thought I protected myself by getting a sample and someone with a college education in the field. I’m going with #2, with the first step of asking her to explain all the commas and grammar points I found awkward. If she is willing to work with me, major cudos, if not – we can play hard 🙂
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Hi Ana! Firstly, cudos to you for answering almost single comment! Not everyone does that these days. I found your blog because you followed mine – Jamaican Foodlosophy – and I really appreciate it! 🙂 Secondly, it sucks that your proofreader couldn’t explain the rules of why she thought that comma should go there. It seems a few persons have mentioned Oxford commas so I won’t say much on that. Grammar Girl is awesome! As is Grammarly – an online proofreader and one of my favorite tools for double-checking anything I write. I agree with the advice someone else gave earlier though: you’re the author so be mindful of your characters personalities and in the art of the written word, every rule is breakable so if you must, you must 🙂 All the best with the novel! Hoping to find it on Amazon when you publish! – Chelsea
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Thank you Chelsea! I can’t believe how much I’ve learned from a couple of posts asking people on their opinions, both on design and grammar. I got resource links, new contacts, and appreciation for how varied people’s opinions and likes truly are. How could I not answer, when they’ve taken time not only to read, but to think and then advise me 🙂
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Looks like you have more than enough advice here, but I’ll offer this to you at least: never set aside the fact that the story is your baby! If your baby needs a diaper change, you have the right and deserve to know how and why this is a good idea in order to make an informed decision. If the babysitter just doesn’t like the choice of diapers you use, that is irrelevant.
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Thank you! I guess, using your metaphor, I’m a first-time mother, beside myself with worry 🙂 I’ve asked a maternity nurse to show me how to put the diaper on, but it looks to me like she did it back to front 🙂
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Congratulations, Mom 🙂 Good luck!
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Haha! Thank you 🙂
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Personally, I would not continue to use her and try to negotiate a price for the work she has already done (assuming she has made valid points along the way). There’s no point in continuing a partnership where you are uncomfortable – it’ll only make you feel worse about your manuscript and (let’s face it) it’s difficult enough without added stress.
I would also try to get a sample from any proofreaders you want to use in the future. If their style doesn’t work for you, you’re not going to want to pay them for it.
Finally, good luck. I hope you find a solution that works.
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Thank you Jo! She did make a lot of valid points and she was scrupulously thorough, which I appreciate. I’m about to send her a table of all changes I’ve questioned and will ask to explain them. It will be a good test of how collaborative she is. In the future, though, at least for a proofreader, I will try to find an American editor.
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As a speaker (and writer) of British English, I’d say look for a Brit… But if your target audience is America, then an American is probably a good idea.
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Whoops!
I signed my real name.
Can it be a secret just between us? 😉
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No probs, I deleted that other one 🙂 thank you for confirming that Grammarly is worth it!
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I think you should use your feelings. As you write, you feel your way through the process. Only you know how it should read. Pay her for her time and her expertise but use your instinct to finish the book. Whether Russian, Chinese, Ugandan or English, your thoughts should prevail. I read for content, not grammatically correct English. After all, if Shakespeare hadn’t been a drunk, he would have written so that we could all understand him!
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Haha, that’s a good point! Didn’t he also invent words as he saw fit?
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Yes and corrected the Kings English. I make words up to fit my mood, but then I write for myself, not others. I would take note, if like you, I was looking to be published. Is writing not an art form? Could you see Leonardo changing the colour of the background on the Mona Lisa because Vasari noted that there was little contrast. You are driven by passion to write. What is a proofreading, but a failed writer? OK that’s a supposition. But you get my drift. Wow, deep and meaning sillyphoshical argument from Deedee. Good luck girl, you go gett’em.
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Sorry, I can’t agree with the statement about the proofreader – they have a very important role to play. Yes, to some degree we can take artistic liberties, but Leonardo was a master of his craft, his own proofreader if you will. The rest of us need help, especially the 40+ year old Russian women trying to sound like 20 year old American girls…
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I like to think that we control our own destiny. You have a dream and you are following it. Yes proofreaders are important but so are you. You are the author. This is your creation. BTW wait until you become 50+, heading towards 60. As I’ve said, I’m middle aged and I do intend to live beyond 100. I wish you every success.
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Do you use Grammarly? There’s a free version so you can try it out? I’m all for option 2….when we want opinions, we can get them on the street for free, we shouldn’t have to pay for them 😀
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Is there a free Grammarly?? Omg, I will look now…I saw the plans and did an “eh”, since I’ve already paid so much… thank you!!
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You can either download an add-on to your browser, or check each document on their website. I find it useful 🙂
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